Thus revealed, the creature buried its nose in the tire-tilled soil...
June 27, 2007
Responses to comments in the previous post.
Category: Serious

I was going to post this in the comments thread of the previous post per usual, but I think it's long enough to warrant making it a new post. The comments to which I am responding are from Dave -- located here -- and Nick -- located here. Once you're all caught up and stuff, you can read my responses below the cut.

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Dave: Two points in response. The first is that I do think that the behavior I describe -- or at least the mentality that underlies it -- differs from "someone assuming they can engage in a conversation about the Yankees or American Idol" with anyone, because here the topics are not general but are specifically chosen in accordance with the skin color of the interlocutor. The behavior that bothers me also includes assumptions about the interlocutor that go above and beyond that of a remote and/or general interest in the subject. It's the difference between meeting someone at a party and asking if he/she saw the final episode of "The Sopranos" (I've never seen a single episode) and approaching someone of apparent Latin descent and saying, "So I bet you sure like tacos, huh???" In both instances people may be repeating what they heard somewhere else, but the latter example is much more demeaning.

The second point is that contrary to the assumption that these people probably don't know me very well, whereas I am bothered by comments from even people for whom this is true, the most frustrating ones come from people who have known me for years. The AIM excerpt came from someone who has known me for at least four years, and a number of the regular offenders have known me longer than that. My parents have known me my entire life.

And it's not as if I've never commented on this kind of behavior or only reply to it with a look of disgust -- I have given so many lengthy arguments and explanations detailing why this is unacceptable that even if people are truly incapable of understanding me on the matter and making an effort to recognize people as individuals, you'd think that they'd at least refrain from making insulting comments to me. But even after years and years of association (and my largely predictable nature!) they still expect me to have the exact same views as Chris Rock or Cornel West (or that they might expect said persons to espouse) regarding any given topic.

Nick: You write, "You can either be depressed by this or realize that the people you are friends with have made an effort to look past stereotypes and spend the precious minutes of their life in your company." But what I am saying is that they clearly haven't made that effort -- or that whatever effort they have made is so insignificant as to be negligible -- such that their attitude does preclude the possibility of our having anything other than meaningless and superficial relationships.

In addition, your disjunctive statement here is analogous (not directly, of course) to "you can either feel pain or perform open brain surgery on yourself to sever the nerve endings and be glad that the people who deign to drink with you are only uppercutting you in the gut as opposed to breaking bottles over your skull and gouging out your eyes." Just as one would feel pain in said instance insofar as being punched in the gut hurts, insofar as I recognize that I am being insulted, I feel insulted when people insult me -- especially when, assuming that they've listened to anything of importance that I have ever said, they should know better.

I am more concerned with the reality that people do not recognize me as an individual rather than that they identify me with specific stereotypes or groups -- it's just that this particular identification is the most prevalent in my experience in society today (in addition to being implicated in so, so, so many social problems that could be fixed -- easily -- if people simply stopped). Admittedly, if I met someone who stereotyped me on the basis of my shoe size (in a way that had nothing to do with penis size), I would probably be amused and interested at first, but only because that has never happened and would give me the opportunity to learn a bit more about this unfamiliar, foreign society that places such importance on shoe size. After ten times, however, it would probably become quite annoying -- and after 20+ years it would be infuriating.

But you know, while you write, "The kind of people you'd like to make friends with do not exist in the grown-up world," and chalk people's flaws in this respect up to basic human nature, I'll be honest -- I don't believe that at all. I may not even believe that there is a single person on this planet who is incapable of changing if given the right impetus. I may think that people are lazy, or stupid, or shallow little creatures, but I do not think that they are that limited in their capacity to recognize others as individuals. I mean -- one hopes -- they recognize themselves as being individuals (though admittedly in many cases their perception is blurred as a result of various social influences), so how difficult is it to extend this courtesy to others?

In fact, even though the prevalence of this mode of thinking makes it a little easier to exercise, I would argue that it takes more work to reduce people to stereotypes and group representatives (etc.) than it does to grant them their individual autonomy. Whereas the former requires people to draw upon probabilities, outside information, media bias, etc., etc., all the latter requires is one of the most basic and intuitive examples from your run-of-the-mill introductory logic course. Really, it's so simple! Humans may be flawed in many, many ways, but I have to believe that they're better than this. Quite frankly, I'm disappointed and worried that, on the occasions when I do sincerely question my faith in others, people essentially encourage me to abandon it altogether. Even if you've "accepted" that people are largely hopeless, this is the part where you're supposed to hold my hand and lie to me.

At any rate, even if the strain does ultimately press me unhappily into my grave, I would rather be depressed and retain my sad, perpetually shaken idealism (or even optimism) than simply "accept" that people are unable to grasp even the most basic ideas and understanding that -- if I am right -- make love and respect and friendship and all other meaningful relationships possible. I couldn't be otherwise even if I wanted to: accepting these so-called flaws of humanity and losing myself (whether that entails suicide or the murder spree or a third option, the creation of persona that is perhaps more cheerful but also more shallow, less interesting, and decidedly not me) are tantamount to the same outcome.

And no, I don't think that the world would be better off without me -- but insofar as I am wrong about people and their capacity to truly relate to and connect with others, I do think that I (and everyone else) would be better off elsewhere.

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-posted by Wes | 11:02 pm | Comments (5)
5 Comments »
  • Jaded says:

    Hi Wes,

    I almost responded to the last post, but the comments were many, and I was having trouble organizing my thoughts into a clear, concise statement. I'm still not sure I can, but your taco analogy struck a chord with me, so I'll apologize in advance for what will probably appear as aimless rambling.

    I almost made a similar analogy to the original post about the taco, actually. The reason is this: I am half Italian, and the other half is Spanish with a little bit of Russian thrown in for good measure. People have said things like "Oh, you're Spanish, I bet you like (insert name of random hispanic food here.)" Things like that used to really piss me off because I thought they were ignorant and insensitive, but I've learned some things over the years which have made me rethink my position.

    First, I don't think people say things to me about liking - or having a great recipe for - tacos or burritos or rice & beans in an effort to mock me in any way. I think mostly they are trying to understand and relate to who I am. They can't know what it's like to be a Spanish woman any more than I can know what it's like to be an African American man. I don't apologize for not knowing, because there's no way to have that life experience unless you were born that way. But in an effort to find commonalities, people will say thing that might sound quite the opposite. It absolutely boils down to something you mentioned yourself...people don't know the difference between culture and race. I completely understand why your friend's comment offended you, but I think it was made in an effort to show he was sensitive to the fact that people of color weren't adequately represented on the tv show. Or, maybe the dude is just an ass, which is possible since I don't know him, but since you considered him a friend, I doubt that's the case.

    We teach people how to treat us. If you don't like the way someone responds to you because of your race, you need to make sure they understand this, and tell them how better to respond to you. You can't blame a white man for not knowing how to best respond to a black man because there's no way on earth he can know what it's like to live in those shoes, and vice versa. You can, however, teach him about how you, as a person, prefer to be treated. So, when I was once asked if I had a good recipe for tacos, I simply said "Oh, sorry, no, I don't! While I love to eat Mexican food I have no idea how to prepare it. I do, however, have a mean recipe for paella that my great grandmother taught me!" That was the catalyst for a conversation about how not all hispanics come from one place, and that we have vastly different cultures. I didn't hold it against her, or consider her malicious and insensitive, because her limited exposure to hispanics came from the stereotypes we see on television. She was trying to relate to me, not to point out our differences. When I was younger, I'd have been offended. Now I'm old. And jaded. I see things a bit differently.

    I don't think you should lose your faith in people, nor do I think you should settle for less than exactly what you need in any relationship. I think people often attempt to acknowledge our individuality by trying to relate to the thing which is most evident, our race. It's not something we can hide...we wear it on every inch of our bodies, not just our sleeves. It's up to us to steer them away from that, gently, and to let them know that our individuality comes from who we are as people, not from our appearance. Once you've made your expectations clear, get rid of the people who don't respect you enough to accommodate them. We are all flawed. We all say or do things that might hurt people without meaning to. But that doesn't mean that we can't surround ourselves with people whose flaws compliment our own, and who accept us exactly as we are. Things really aren't as simple as you'd like them to be, but the kind of people you'd like to have as friends do exist. Sometimes we just have to give them a quick lesson or two for them to understand us.

    I hope this made sense.

  • Nick says:

    Bravo!

  • Wes says:

    Jaded: Thanks for commenting! Your comment does make sense and does not come across as aimless rambling, but I admittedly wonder if my earlier points were as clear as I'd hoped. That worry stems less from the gist of your comment than from certain potential semantic difficulties, though -- a distinction does need to be made between "culture" and "race", but perhaps we should also establish one between "race" and "skin color". I assume that you were using the latter two terms interchangeably here (correct me if I am wrong), but I tend to use "skin color" because I always have a sneaking suspicion that people are referring to something far more nebulous and encompassing -- something more akin to culture, but less well-defined -- when they mention "race".

    That said, you write:

    First, I don't think people say things to me about liking - or having a great recipe for - tacos or burritos or rice & beans in an effort to mock me in any way. I think mostly they are trying to understand and relate to who I am. ... I think people often attempt to acknowledge our individuality by trying to relate to the thing which is most evident, our race.

    I don't necessarily think that people are being malicious when they respond to others in this way, but the tendency of people to default to broad assumptions and make pointed statements based on stereotypes makes it exceedingly difficult for me to give them any credit for "trying to "understand and relate" to others. It strikes me as utterly ridiculous that people attempt to acknowledge individuality by focusing on shallow physical traits when it takes all of three seconds (or less) to recognize the obvious fallacy there. So I can't really be sympathetic to or apologetic of that kind of thinking. When it is so easy to simply ask a question and people fail to do so, they're not trying very hard at all.

    You write, "It's up to us to steer them away from that, gently, and to let them know that our individuality comes from who we are as people, not from our appearance" -- but this is so obvious that the need for me to explain it to anyone (gently or otherwise) upsets me greatly. And while I refuse to attribute these failings to basic human nature, I tend believe that individuals who actually need to be taught this lesson are already hopeless.

    It is somewhat more encouraging to believe that they really do understand -- how could they not?! -- but have been conditioned by the Zeitgeist and mores of political correctness to respond in certain predictable ways.

  • Jaded says:

    I do have a response to this, but alas, I have to actually earn a living in a few minutes. Ick.

    But I have to ask a question, and I do NOT mean this to be in ANY way condescending... how old are you, Wes? I'll just put it out there that I'm 41. I'm not one of those women who think it's cute to lie about my age. I only ask 'cause I know you're younger than I am (who isn't), and it'll help me better understand where you are in the grand scheme of this kind of situation. I'll explain later, but now I have to work. Oh, the indignity of it all! 🙂

  • dave says:

    Wes, one thing you should admit is that one of the things you talk about is race.

    Therefore, it is not a genuine argument that they're bringing the subject up because of your skin color alone (unless, of course, they don't know you at all).

    If they KNOW you than it's almost absurd to think they're bringing race into the conversation because of your skin color - it could just as easily be that they recall that you have opinions on the subject.

    Now, the fact that they're missing the mark on your opinion about race? Well, perhaps they're NOT interested in the topic enough to differentiate. If I saw someone getting worked up over a Yankees/Redsox game, I would have NO IDEA which team they liked. I might go so far as to congratulate them the day after their team lost because I couldn't give a shit who won such a game, but I am trying to comment on what I know is their interest. Now, unless the only thing that matters to this person is the Redsox/Yankees, (in which case I would have no reason to talk to this person) it is really no indication as to how well I know the person.

    The fact that they relate your comments about race - such as the comment above about hearing it all the time for 20 years - to the other people who talk about such things is not necessarily a reflection on your skin color either.

    Chris Rock, Cornel West, these are the people who talk about these things. What famous white person talks about race? In other words, at least SOME of the time, it is a reference to the content of your thoughts.- even if they're missing the mark as to the specific content.

    If I saw someone get all passionate about a Yankees/Redsox game, and so got them tickets to a Yankees game, not realizing that they're a Redsox fan, it doesn't prove I don't care about them - it shows I don't care about baseball.

    Furthermore, both Chris Rock and Cornel West are considered high brow and intelligent (whether they are or not is not really the point - they're considered as such) - they aren't comparing you to Daniel Carver (resident KKK and racial expert from the Howard Stern show) or Dave Chappell - who's racial bits don't pretend to have any intellectual or social value.

    So there is, or at least can be, an additional assumption about your intelligence.

    Now, in the mix, is there also a shallow dimension to these comments? Well sure. People can be dumb. I'm not defending most people. But I'm saying that racial comments are not by definition completely refering to a single dimension. Which means every time someone says something doesn't necessarily mean it's diminishing.

    So, I guess, the point I'm making is that comparing you to Chris Rock et al is not NECESSARILY only a comment about skin color, but can an attempt to relate the content to another frame of reference, even if it misses the point.

    I don't understand why it's demeaning to ask someone if they like tacos.
    I've had people say "you guys like bagels" or assume I keep Kosher. I don't think it's demeaning. Now I've had OTHER comments I consider demeaning, but it's mostly bsaed on the spirit or motivation behind the question/comment.

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